Legacy and Creation: The Voices of Women Artists at the AR Mitchell Museum

Megan Wimberley: 00:01:46

Hi, Kwani and Lisa.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:01:49

Hello. Hello.

Megan Wimberley: 00:01:50

out the Women's work show for: 2025

So, Kwani, do you want to start?

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:02:08

Sure. My name is Kwani Povi Winder.

I am an enrolled member of the Santa Clara Pueblo tribe, and I currently live in southeast Idaho, kind of west of Blackfoot area, in a home that we just barely built about a year ago. And I primarily paint landscapes and figurative work. I do a lot of native figurative work and some spiritual work.

Kind of do a little bit of everything. And then also, what just tickles my fancy, I like painting from life, and so I will often just sit down and paint something that strikes my fancy.

Megan Wimberley: 00:02:51

That's awesome. If you haven't seen Kwani's work in person or online, make sure to look it up. The way you handle the human face is.

I mean, all of your paintings, I feel like people are just glowing. Like you can just see into their soul, and they are just incredibly beautiful. So everybody should check out your work. Lisa, how about you?

Lisa Sorrell, you want to tell everybody a little bit about yourself?

Lisa Sorrell: 00:03:16

Hi, I'm Lisa Sorrell, and I'm a cowboy boot maker in Oklahoma. A few years ago, I started a business selling leather tools and supplies to other boot and shoemakers, and that now takes up so much of my time.

And making boots is a treat and a pleasure for me rather than my primary job anymore. But I made a living doing it for over 30 years, so I feel like I've earned the rest.

Megan Wimberley: 00:03:42

And are you really resting, though?

Lisa Sorrell: 00:03:46

That's an excellent question. No, I'm not resting, but I don't know. It's a different challenge running a supply business. I've learned a lot. It's been fun.

Megan Wimberley: 00:03:56

Yeah. And you're really kind of keeping that supply, those supply lines open in some cases. Is that correct?

Lisa Sorrell: 00:04:03

It's. It's a really important thing that I'm doing because there aren't really any businesses that cater directly to bespoke makers. And.

And that's what I do. And, yeah, everybody says, oh, the cowboy boot trade is threatened, and it is.

But honestly, I feel like if we lose it, it's not going to be because of lack of interest in learning the trade. It's going to be because we can't get the supplies anymore.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:04:29

Hmm.

Megan Wimberley: 00:04:30

It's so wild how that is happening. So with so many of the traditional arts, things like that.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:04:36

Yeah, that.

Megan Wimberley: 00:04:37

Yeah. It's good for people to be aware of it. I also.

One thing I always love to talk about with boots, because I think it's such a unique thing now, especially cowboy boots are kind of a newer fashion or style, you could say. And so you can literally trace your roots back to original cowboy boot makers. Could you speak about that for a second?

Lisa Sorrell: 00:04:58

I can. I can trace my history, my lineage, directly back to Gus Blucher, who was one of the original cowboy boot makers.

Gus Blucher trained Archer laforce, who trained Jay Griffith, and I worked with Jay Griffith, and I also worked with Ray Dorwart, who was a student of Jay Griffith as well. So I can trace my roots directly back to the beginning of cowboy boots, which is super.

Megan Wimberley: 00:05:22

Yeah. Isn't that cool, Kwani? Yeah. I know all of us fine artists, we're just, like, all over the place.

And Lisa's like, bam, bam, bam to this person, which is really. Before we actually talk about women's work, I do want to also give you, Lisa, one chance to tell everybody. What is it?

What kind of firsthand resources are you looking for for the book you're writing now?

Lisa Sorrell: 00:05:43

I'm primarily.

I'm writing a book about the history of cowboy boots, specifically the history of leather inlay and overlay, because cat cowboy boots wouldn't have gained such a large chunk of American memory and passion that they have if they didn't have the leather inlay and overlay on them. And I'm specifically looking for early vintage cowboy boot company catalogs. Like old hire catalogs, old Blucher catalogs.

I would love to find a Dixon boot catalog. I can't find one of those anywhere. And so I'm looking for early cowboy boot catalogs, because that's pretty much the only written history that exist.

Those bookmakers were not out there writing their life stories and. And recording what they were doing dayto day.

Megan Wimberley: 00:06:29

Yeah. So if you have information about that, make sure to send it to Lisa.

Obviously, she's an expert in her field, but still trying to learn some of this history that we've lost. So if you have the opportunity, but the history that we've lost or maybe these stories, that's part of what women's work is about.

So let's talk about women's work, because women's work is all about telling a more complete story of the West.

Often when we see the portrayal of people, Western art shows, women are either really lacking or they're very one dimensional characters, they're beautiful faces or they're doing very stereotypical things. And while those things are important, women are, are much more than that. And we're going to talk a lot about that in this interview.

But, but we really want to bring those stories to the forefront and celebrate the, the full picture of the American West. And then of course, part of that, you know, and, and the terminology and the feelings can be complex.

But another area that we really see missing in Western art shows is, is art by indigenous artists.

There's a lot of art about indigenous artists, but we really want to make sure indigenous artists can tell their own stories and be a part of that, whether they consider their art Western or not. Indigenous Indigenous stories are the original story of the west. And so we want to make sure that, that those are included.

So that's kind of the, the crux of this show is just celebrating women and their contributions and, and making. And so, Kwani, I want to give you a chance. Could you tell us a little bit? You're part of the Santa Clara Pueblo tribe.

Can you tell us a little bit about the culture of your tribe?

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:08:05

So our tribe is in northern New Mexico, about 20, 30 minutes north of Santa Fe. It's one of many pueblos that are along the Rio Grande there. And our culture is in actually textiles, like weaving.

But also the main thing that we are famous for is our shiny black pottery. And I come from a long line of potters. That's what my aunts and uncles do. That's what my grandparents did.

That's actually a lot of how my grandparents made their living was selling pottery. And so it's a huge, huge thing for our community and very traditional and being passed down from person to person.

And that's actually the subject of my.

Megan Wimberley: 00:09:03

Painting I, which I love that cross medium.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:09:09

Yeah. So I me being a painter, I love 3D arts. But it's been a long time since I was a child since I've actually made a piece of pottery.

But recently my family has started to collect pieces that my grandparents and specifically my grandmother had made. And so, I mean, she passed away when I was nine, so it's been a good couple decades. But since she made and even before that since she made work.

And it's been really neat to see these pieces and to touch these pieces that maybe like my grand. We just barely got a piece off of ebay that my grandfather had written the inscription on of my grandmother and his names.

Because usually when pot you make pottery it's not just one person doing the piece in its entirety. Usually you have a husband and wife kind of working together, polishing and creating or forming the shape.

But then, like, the main artist is the one that usually will, at least in my family, is the one who will kind of write the information down on the. On the bottom of the pot.

And so just holding these pieces that my grandparents made and then talking to my mom about them, who also helped my grandmother polished pots and carved pots growing up, and her being like, I think I made this. Like, she was able to kind of narrow it down like a time frame. And it was before I was born of when this one piece was made that we currently have.

And the piece that I did for the show or painted for the show, I painted it from life. And it's a wedding vase that my grandmother made for my parents. And it. I mean, it's been in.

They would have had their 50th either this year or last year anyways, but my dad has passed away. But yeah, it's a. It's a wedding vase that my grandmother made. And to hold that and to see it, and then it also has a crack along the handle.

And my mother was just telling me that my brother had knocked it over when he was younger. And anyways, they glued it back together. But I don't know, just these history. And it's. It's just rife with. It's.

It's so embedded into your life, pottery is. And creating. And so I feel like I kind of grew up with that.

And I think that's very much so an artistic eye and talent that has been passed down to me from them.

Megan Wimberley: 00:11:51

That's so beautiful. I. And now are the pots. Are they coil pots or. Okay, can you kind of tell everybody what. How a coil pot is done? And.

But before you say this, I'm gonna tell you as you're describing it, if you've never seen one of these in person, that is done well, like what Kwani's talking about, you would never know that this was the way that they were put together.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:12:15

People assume. I've had people assume that they're made out of metal because, well, I'm getting ahead of myself.

So coil pot is like, you know, you think of play doh, like rolling it out into a snake. So basically you just take the snake and you just blend it together and you start to make this form and it's all hand done. It's not done on a wheel.

Like, the symmetrical shapes are all formed by hand by someone Just turning that pot by hand. It's not like they're holding it and forming it like you see pottery studios doing on a wheel. There's no wheel. It's just yourself.

And then they get this even thickness. And then our village. There's different ways that they finish it off, depending on the pueblo. But our village will usually carve into the pot.

So they'll recess carve maybe about a fourth of an inch or so into the surface, which is crazy, because you had to blend your coils really well for that not to show up when you start carving, because that's, like, the inside of the pot, and so it just becomes one solid surface. And then they will take river stones.

And I actually included in my painting some of these river stones that were handed down to my mom that her mom used to use, and possibly my grandmother. I don't remember for sure. But there's, like, indentions where the fingers held these stones, and you take. And you burnish.

So you just rub the pot with a slip, and that's how you get it shiny. And the really good pots, you can't even see hardly at all the burnished lines where someone would stroke it. And. And it's.

It's just incredible to me, like, to see all these.

The amount of time and the care that went into a piece to carve it out and size it out, to scrape away little layers of clay and then to take these rocks and to polish it. And then they get, like. Some of everybody's polishing tools are formed to their hand.

And so, you know, depending on the size of your hand, some tools don't work for other family members. And so you just kind of. I remember going as a little girl out and, like, looking at river stones. I mean, like, this is my polishing stone.

And, like, I don't know, just. It was just very much so a part of everything. But, yeah, I've had people. It's. It's called shiny black.

So then they fire it, and depending on how you fire it, it'll either carbonize and it'll turn black, or if you don't carbonize it, it will just stay red. So the pottery will be a red shiny. But, yeah, people have been like, oh, is that, like. Is it a ceramic.

You know, like, ceramic cast with the glaze on it and. No, it's. It's actual. Like, they've taken. And they've polished this clay to a shining, shining patina.

Megan Wimberley: 00:15:20

Yeah, it's absolutely incredible. And the thing that. Two of the things that astound me the most about it is how perfect it is, both in symmetry, but then also the carvings.

And I wonder, do you. How. How do they maintain that symmetry? Because, you know, on a wheel, there's little tricks you can use to make sure it's. But you.

You're not doing that. So how is it that. That they keep it that way? Do you know? Do you know?

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:15:45

I have no idea. The few pieces I made are lacking that symmetry, but I know it just comes from a feel, and it just comes from just. You get better with more time.

It just is crazy to see. And the crispness that they're able to get, too, with the incising. You look at really old pots, and they were kind of rounded over a little bit more.

But people have kind of perfected the craft over time. But these are really sharp carved lines and really, really precise. It blows my mind.

Like, people aren't sitting out with, like, a sketched out pattern drawn on a computer and laying it over their palette and marking it. They're just like, innately drawing these figures that wrap, and it blows my mind.

Megan Wimberley: 00:16:36

Yeah.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:16:37

Use the pottery symbols and incorporate them into my paintings. It is so hard, and they do it so effortlessly. It just.

It's been amazing to me to kind of learn a little bit more as I've gotten older and appreciate it more than when I was young.

And, you know, when you're nine years old, you don't really care as much about the history and the depth and the stories that could be told about all this stuff.

Megan Wimberley: 00:17:04

Yeah. That's incredible. I didn't even realize that both of you are craftspeople. Not. No, I guess I'm a painter.

If we need somebody to talk about painting, I'll talk about it. But I didn't realize it was. Well, you are a painter. What am I saying?

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:17:18

Well, I was, but I'm honoring the craftsman through my painting. The craftsmanship of my people and. And specifically my grandmother.

Megan Wimberley: 00:17:27

Yeah. You just built such a picture in my mind that I was just like, funny isn't a painter. Yes, you are. Okay.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:17:34

One day I will be more.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:17:37

I loved. I loved hearing you talk about the tools and how they fit your hands and how you can feel the person through.

Through the tools and the imprints that they made on those tools. That's. That's just so valuable and so cool when you pick up one of those tools.

Megan Wimberley: 00:17:53

Well, I was actually gonna. Oh, go ahead, Connie.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:17:56

Oh, no, I was just that it's got a spirit to the tool.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:17:59

It does.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:18:00

It just is. It's Amazing. And, and almost a reverence.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:18:05

Yes. I, I've read that there is a Japanese religion that teaches once a tool reaches 100 years old, it has a soul.

And I, I believe that because I, I pick up old tools and I, I think of all the people who held them before I did, and, and the way that their hands sometimes have marked the tool and, and the way that they used it has changed the tool and, and it's really meaningful to use those old tools.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:18:30

Yeah.

Megan Wimberley: 00:18:31

Yeah. It's so funny that you brought that up because I literally wrote that to talk.

Bring to you, Lisa, because I was thinking so much about, with boot making, the tools, and then also, just like you said, like that touching. I think touching something especially our relatives or ancestors have touched is so powerful there.

It's almost like you can feel their presence in that somehow. And so with boot making, obviously there's a lot of specialized tools as well.

And I don't really know what I'm asking you, Lisa, but, but talk a little bit about the tools of your trade.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:19:05

There are a lot of specialized tools and, and some of them are absolutely necessary, and some of them just make your work a little nicer if you have them. But I always prefer the old tools, the ones that, that just have that spirit. You can tell someone's used them and loved them.

And maybe it doesn't make it better, but I think it makes my work better to use a tool that, that has a history behind it. Even though I don't know it, when I pick up those tools, I can feel it.

Megan Wimberley: 00:19:35

I also wonder too. Can you. I love what you say about the square peg in the round hole.

Can you talk about that phrase, where it came from and what you actually think about it?

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:19:46

Sure.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:19:47

Well, you know, everyone's heard the phrase a square peg in a round hole, and it's usually used to, in kind of a way that it's not very good to be a square peg in a round hole, but actually in boot making, so the sole of cowboy boots traditionally is pegged with little wooden pegs, and those little pegs are square, but the hole, the awl that you use to punch the hole is round. And the reason for that is when you drive a square peg into a round hole, the tension forces.

The tension from the square forces that round hole into a square, and then that helps the peg stay tightly in place. So it's a good thing to be a square peg in a round hole.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:20:30

That's awesome.

Megan Wimberley: 00:20:31

Isn't that cool? I love that so much. Well, and before we start talking about your work and. And more of its relation to women's work.

I wonder, too, with craft, because. And Kwani, I know that you approach your painting at.

Well, let me back up and explain this, because Lisa and I have had these conversations about craft and how art, like fine art, we have a little bit more flexibility with what we can do.

We can take those artistic license and leaps and all of that, but with craft, there is much more of a right way and a wrong way and a poor way to do something. Now, you can still be creative with it, but there's much less flexibility with craft done well.

And so whereas with painting, maybe perfection, we could say, doesn't necessarily exist to some level, but with craft, you really are striving for. For perfection. And I've read a book where they say when.

When fine arts go into trying to create perfection, it becomes craft, which it kind of turns a little bit of the notion of craft and fine art on its head, because many people look down like, oh, craft is, like, lower than the fine arts. But I think it would be interesting. You know, we heard Kwani talking about the craftsmanship of her grandparents and her family.

And Lisa, can you speak to kind of that level of craftsmanship and just developing your. Your skill as a craftsman? It takes.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:23:06

Well, just cowboy boots, specifically, it takes a long time. I remember I had been doing this about 10 years, and I felt the knowledge move from my head to my hands to where I didn't. All the time.

I didn't have to be thinking, this is what I'm doing. This is how to do it. Here's how to hold the tool. This is what I do next. At one point, I realized my hands knew and.

And that's such a cool place to reach when. When your hands have all this knowledge and you can just look down and watch them doing wonderful things. And it's. It's a very powerful feeling.

Megan Wimberley: 00:23:42

Connie, do you feel that you relate to that with your painting?

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:23:45

I am like, you just described something I have tried to describe for, like, years.

Megan Wimberley: 00:23:51

It's so cool.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:23:52

It is. And I love, like, the hands having knowledge. Like that concept is so true because it becomes muscle memory.

And I often use music analogies and to compare art making to. Because people understand music or tend to understand music a little bit more.

But trying to describe someone when you have a painting that just paints itself, it sounds like, oh, yeah, I took a vacation. And it just like, no, it's not that. It's just, like, becoming so immersed that you get to. And again, Music analogy.

As a pianist, when you memorize a song so well that you no longer have to think about the thing, fingerings, and you can just focus on the emotion and the storytelling of it and just immerse yourself and get lost in that movie movement. It's a very special thing that takes a long time to get to.

And so there's only been a few times where I've done a painting where I prepared enough and that I'm in just the right mental place that I can go to that place and just allow my body to create how it knows how to create. So I love the way that you describe that, because that's just.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:25:10

It's magical. Yeah, it is that moment when you finish and you step back and you go, wow, that's great. Where did it come from?

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:25:17

Because it.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:25:19

It's bigger than you.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:25:20

Yeah.

Megan Wimberley: 00:25:21

And, you know, since we have a variety of artists who listen to our podcast, for the newer artists, that doesn't happen just right away. Right. You have to work and work and make the ugly, terrible artwork to get there.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:25:37

But it's worth it.

Megan Wimberley: 00:25:38

Yeah.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:25:39

It's the practice, like going back to a musical analogy. Like, you have to put in the time to get there, to get your body to a place where it can just remember without you having to tell it to remember.

Megan Wimberley: 00:25:53

Kwani, you'll have to talk to Sarah Garvey. She's new on our operation board, but she uses musical analogies a lot when talking about craftsmanship as well.

So when you said that, I was like, oh, she's gonna love this. Well, let's. Let's talk about your piece. Well, Connie, you've had a chance to talk about your piece, but, Lisa, let's talk about your work.

Can you tell everybody a little bit about the pair of boots that you made? And this is also going to be in a show in. I forgot now. There we go. You can talk about that, too.

But tell us a little bit about your boots and both of these pieces, by the way, y' all are going to be able to see on August 1st. Even if you don't come in, you'll be able to see them online. So if you're listening to this, you can. Can go and check out what they're talking about.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:26:42

So I made a pair of boots, and they just sort of spoke to me the. The whole way through. I actually drew the design. It's. It's little bluebirds, and there are feathers twining around the bluebirds.

And I drew the design probably seven years ago in memory of my Daughter Paige, who was a shoemaker and worked with me in the shop, and she died at age 20 from depression and suicide. And so I drew the design probably, like I said, seven years ago, at some point, I started on the boots, and they took control from the beginning.

The colors they chose themselves.

Megan Wimberley: 00:27:27

The.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:27:27

The tops are green, like a. Kind of a dull green. And then all of the feathers and all the birds are blue.

And then my muse just said all of the stitching has to be lavender, which sounds odd, but that's what it was. And I worked on them a little bit, and it wasn't until just recently just this. This went late winter, early spring, where when I was finally able to.

To work on the boots to completion, they had been in a drawer for so long, and. And then they. They said, it's time. And I had originally chosen a blue ostrich for the foot, and they said, no, we want to be turquoise alligator.

And so they are. And they turned out so well. Like, I don't know if.

If I was just thinking of Paige through this time or if she was guiding me, but anyway, they're one of the few boots I've made where. Where they're just almost perfect. They're not perfect, trust me. I managed to put in a few mistakes, but they're so.

They just flowed out of me and that. It was magical the whole time.

Megan Wimberley: 00:28:33

That's amazing. And I. I feel that way with my art, too, that it's, like, speaks to me, you know, you have to listen to what it. Do you feel that way, too, Kwani?

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:28:41

Yes.

Megan Wimberley: 00:28:42

Yeah. You have to listen to. So we sound like we're like, you know, hearing voices, but I guess we are in some ways, but we're just talking with our.

With our work. Yeah.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:28:50

And I don't feel that I was wasting time. In this past seven years, I waited until they told me they were ready, and once they were ready, it was right.

Megan Wimberley: 00:28:59

Yeah. No, you gotta trust the process.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:29:01

For things I have learned, you don't force it. Because if you're like, no, I'm ready, and it should be ready, and then you do it. It's always.

I end up scraping it or scrapping it and just being like, no, that was. I've just learned. You just don't. You don't do it. Till it's ready.

Megan Wimberley: 00:29:18

Yes.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:29:18

Till it's time. And so, yeah, there's. There's, like, things hanging out up here that I'm like. And they just kind of kick around and just. Yeah, it feels right.

Megan Wimberley: 00:29:30

Yeah. I feel like our Subconscious, we under value as artists, but it's always working. We're sleeping, we're cooking, we're eating, we're doing whatever.

It's always under the surface, being creative without our knowledge.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:29:44

I think that's another thing that experience gives you, is learning to listen to that. Learning to slow down and be quiet and listen and pay attention when your subconscious begins speaking.

Megan Wimberley: 00:29:57

Yeah, yeah. When? With your boots. Lisa, did you, did you choose the bird imagery for a reason?

Lisa Sorrell: 00:30:05

I, I think I chose the bird imagery for Paige. A couple, A couple of days after she died, we had a. We had a dog pen in our yard made of chicken wire. And this had never happened.

Been in our yard for years and it was in our yard for years after before we finally scrapped it. But a couple of days after she died, we were out on the porch and we kept hearing this noise and we were like, what. What is that squeaking noise?

And we finally went over and there was a bird trapped in that cage and it was so tired and we got it out and it rested for a bit and then it flew away.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:30:45

Wow.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:30:46

And so I just always think of her in that way.

Megan Wimberley: 00:30:50

Yeah, that's really incredibly powerful imagery, for sure. I, you know, I, as I said before, we were going to talk about how women are complex.

We're not one dimensional people, the way that often women are portrayed in the work. And we really want to tell these full stories.

And so, Lisa, this is something that you and I have talked about before, but I think it's important for us to be able to use any platform. We have to talk about some of these things that we're afraid to talk about.

And, and I wondered if you would say a little bit about the issue with medication and for one, that we, we don't have to be ashamed to talk about these things. Depression is a thing many people experience. There are people to help you.

But can you tell us a little bit about the issue with the medication for Paige in case anyone else is struggling?

Lisa Sorrell: 00:31:40

Yes. Depression is a real illness.

That's the reason that I'm always happy to talk about Paige, because there's a stigma around talking about depression and talking about suffering from depression. And it should not be. If I get pneumonia, I'm not going to be embarrassed to tell you I had pneumonia.

So I shouldn't have to be embarrassed to admit that I have mental health issues. But there's also a stigma around taking medication. People don't want to admit it, but then.

And I think that leads to something more dangerous, which is the medication is good. It can be very helpful, but the dosage needs to be correct, and the medication itself needs to be correct.

Some people respond better to one type of medication than they do to another.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:32:27

Or.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:32:27

Or the dosage is too much or too little. And that was one thing with Paige. She had gotten better. She was doing so much better, and she went on medication.

And to her, she had been avoiding it, but she felt once she went on medication, that was how she was proving she really did want to get better, she was going to improve and do what her doctor told her. And 30 days after she started taking that medication, she died of suicide because it was either the wrong medication or it was the wrong dosage.

And no one told us that that could happen. And so the stigma is not only wrong, it's dangerous.

If we had been able to talk to people, if we had heard these experiences, perhaps she could have been saved. But we hide it. We hide that we have mental health issues, we hide that we're taking medication, and then no one gets to learn from these experiences.

Megan Wimberley: 00:33:25

Yeah.

And NAMI N A M I the national alliance for Mental Illness, is a wonderful resource to get help as a family member or as a person who has mental health issues, but especially for family members. A lot of people don't know about it, and it is a fantastic organization that gives you support and gives you some of this knowledge.

But, you know, in the past, I've had somebody in my life who was taking several different antidepressants too, and they weren't not helping, and they were giving all these crazy side effects, and nobody was listening to us, nobody was helping us. And I finally literally yelled at somebody because they just kept saying, just go to the er. And we're like, this is not working.

You can't just keep sending us the er. We need to figure this out. And I basically said, I am 20 minutes away and we will be there in 20 minutes, and you better let me talk to a doctor.

And and they did.

And then that doctor who they finally let us talk to, one of the higher ups, did genetic testing, and none of the medications that this person was on was working for them. Their body did not process it. And so don't be afraid, you know, to talk about it. Don't be afraid to join support groups to.

To get a little angry if you've got to. If nobody's listening or whatever you've got to do. But.

But I think the biggest thing that I hope that people hear is that this is something that people deal with commonly. Sometimes there's a reason for it that we can see. Sometimes there's not. But it's okay. There's nothing wrong with you. Like, we.

It's just like if, you know, actually. So when I lived in Yosemite, I worked with search and rescue people. I didn't do search and rescue, but I worked with them.

And I got to interview a lot of really cool people. And this one man, he did provided resources for families who had lost loved ones in the park. There's a special program for that.

And then also rescue workers who experienced trauma.

And what he always said is, like, if I went out on a rescue and I broke my arm, nobody is going to think twice if I go to the doctor to get my arm set. And it is the same thing.

If you're experiencing something in your brain, it's an injury, it's a trauma injury, it's a what you know, however you want to look at it. But you just have to go and talk to those people. So. And get that and not be ashamed about it.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:35:30

Every single time I talk about Paige, someone comes up to me afterward and says, I suffered from mental health issues. I take medication. My child did, my father did my mother. So many of us, every.

It's in everyone's family, but we all hide it from each other and then we don't know.

Megan Wimberley: 00:35:48

Yeah. So it feels a little off topic, but I believe that it is because like is on topic. Because like I said, these are the stories of women.

And Paige is a real woman who existed and had an experience, and you are a real woman as her mother existing and having that experience.

And so it's not maybe the story that one would expect to be shared in this show, but I think it's an important story about women in the west and the way, you know, women, I feel like, are so good about talking about the things, about bringing each other in, having the conversation and working on it together. And that's what we're doing right now. And so I think that it's a really powerful part of. Of the story we're telling.

How, Lisa, how before we move, I've got a question for Kwani, but I did you. I'm trying to see how to ask did. As you made the piece, it sounds like it was mostly joyful for you.

Do you feel like that that was the way the boots felt making it was.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:36:47

And I'm glad I waited until I could find that joy because if I had made them earlier, they would have been sad. And it was a very joyful piece. And I was able to channel that energy. And I think that's why they turned out so well, is because I didn't rush them.

And I waited. I waited for the joy because I wanted to remember her with joy and love.

Megan Wimberley: 00:37:10

Now you're the bird that was in the cage that flew out.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:37:13

Maybe. So.

Megan Wimberley: 00:37:17

Yeah. Kwani, when it comes to your painting and you. And you spoke a little bit about this, but you were working in. In painting and the.

The craft that you're expressing is a totally different media. How are you balancing preserving your cultural heritage with also your personal artistic voice?

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:37:38

Still trying to figure that out. What's been neat for me is that becoming an artist and starting to depict like my mother, I paint her. Her a lot.

I've also painted myself quite a few times.

It's almost like me trying to figure out my native identity because I did not grow up on our reservation, but I would go visit my grandmother every summer with my mother. We would spend several weeks down there, and then usually we'd go one other time during the year.

So I remember the first time that I was able to dance. And then recently, a couple years ago, I found a photo of me dressed in my traditional clothing, and I was dancing. And it was that first time.

And I just. I had to paint it because I just. It brought back all these memories and things that I just kind of forgotten.

And being an adult and starting to explore that again and explore it with adult eyes has allowed me to. And, well, and just being an artist and going down to Santa Fe. Santa Fe is such a huge art market and it's right by my home. I've.

Because of art shows I go every year and I'm able. My. My kids know their great aunt and uncle and their cousins and I don't know, it's been really neat to.

That art has kind of provided this way for me to reconnect with something that I feel like I lost a little bit while I was in college and. But also being able to teach my children and bring that to them.

So I guess I use art and native themed art to explore my identity and what it means to me and to see my.

There's been times that I've painted my children specifically because I want them to see themselves as Native American and having that heritage and that's who they are. Especially my oldest daughter, she does not present phenotypically as a Santa Clara Pueblo, but she's enrolled and she has red hair.

And I want to make sure that she. She sees herself that way. And my youngest daughter she's darker than me. She.

She looks exactly like my grandmother, which is kind of fun, but that's been important to me. And then I. I paint a lot of women, Native women, and I think it's because I want to paint them a little bit different.

You see, in Western art, you don't see very often natives telling their own story in a representational style.

And so I sit in this little kind of unique area of being a Native artist, but my style of art is not traditionally Native style of painting, but it is a traditional Western style of painting. So it's just kind of interesting to sit and kind of explore that and explore those tensions. And I. It takes a lot of mental energy and a lot of.

I don't know, I have to be careful with it. And so I kind of go on waves of, like, exploring it and then taking a break and doing some other stuff and then coming back to it.

Especially, I'm influenced by things that are just going on in the world. Like the pandemic took a big toll on me, and it was.

I had to take a break for quite a while, and I couldn't even do any kind of that art because it just hurt. So I'm not sure if that answered your question, but I did talk a lot.

Megan Wimberley: 00:41:32

No, it was very. I think I love talking to artists because you.

If you're open to letting the conversation flow, it gets so much better, really, because artists are such interesting people and everyone's process is so different. I'm trying to. You've made me think of so many things, and I'm trying to think about which things I wanted to say. I should have taken notes.

But one thing, you know, you talk about the. How you're working in a kind of more traditionally Western style, but as an Indigenous woman representing Indigenous women.

And I think the thing that really sticks out to me about your work is every woman I've ever seen of your paintings, they always feel so powerful. They feel like their own main character. And I feel like that's often what I miss seeing in a lot of things.

It's like, oh, like this young lady washing her. Her face or.

A lot of Native women, I feel like, are portrayed, you know, with this beautiful light on them and they're glowing hair and they're maybe just holding something, but it makes them feel so one dimensional. And your women, I want to go up and look them in the eye and they want to stare right back at me. And I. I just love the power in all of.

All of your subjects.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:42:39

Yes, I Think. I think often in Western art, women are portrayed by their relationship to a man.

And it's the same with Native Americans, their relationship to white culture. And I love it when that's not so. And they're there on their own terms.

Megan Wimberley: 00:42:59

Yeah. And we need to see the stories told by the people who the stories belong to. And that goes for women, and it goes for indigenous people. Right.

Because a lot of times, the way women are portrayed are from a male's perspective. And what is a male, a lot of times going to notice how pretty they are. I mean, like, that's very stereotypical, but that is what shows up.

So I am speaking in stereotypes, but also I'm speaking on what I typically see. And obviously that's not the case. But because I do what I do, I've crunched a lot of numbers on shows because I get really curious.

And in major shows, it will be mostly men, most both cowboys and indigenous men. And they're usually powerful, exploring, hunting, doing all these things. Then the next most portrayed thing are animals.

And animals usually far outweigh women. And then you have a few women. And. And then when I look at women, I also look at. Are they by themselves or are they with a man? And are they.

If they are by themselves, are they part of a story, or are they a pretty face? And. And typically, it's. It's sad.

Typically, there are very, very few representations of women who are main character energy like Kwani's women, you know, and we want to see more women with that main character energy.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:44:15

The beautiful.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:44:15

Yeah, the beautiful women are portrayed for the male gaze. They exist for the male gaze instead of their own story.

Megan Wimberley: 00:44:23

Yeah. And beautiful women are beautiful to look at. You know, women like looking at beautiful women, too.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:44:27

But I was inspired by, like, fashion. Fashion painted a lot of. Anyways, a lot of those Russian impressionists and painted a lot of indigenous women.

And that's kind of what got me interested initially. So I'm thankful for that.

But at the same time, I'm glad that I have a voice now to kind of explore what I want to tell or think about what's important to me and what. And it's neat that you mention their energy or their story, because I feel like there's this little spiritual in another world.

I'm a spiritual artist as well and do a lot of religious paintings.

And so that kind of carries over into my Western work that there's a little bit deeper, and people respond to that, whether or not they know that it's there. But I feel like, they feel that energy that is there and that just that little bit more depth. And usually my titles kind of reflect that.

They're like strength or hope or, you know, there's just a little bit more to that I try to put in there.

Megan Wimberley: 00:45:33

Yeah. And I think people who know that can definitely see that connection, and people who don't maybe wouldn't, but they would still see that. That.

I don't know, like I said, it's like you can see into their soul for both of you, and. And you've both sort of talked about this, but I wonder if it's asked you directly if you would say anything different about it.

I think for artists, the more we create, the more we recognize how our life influences our art and our art influences our lives, and they both influence each other so much. At least that's been my experience. And it sounds like from what y' all are talking about as well.

So I wonder if you can kind of speak to how that kind of cycle of art and life and glensing each other has helped you to grow both as an artist and as a person. What are your big. You know, how has that impacted your life and your. In your art?

Lisa Sorrell: 00:46:28

Well, for me, it's. It's interesting because the culture that I was trained in, cowboy boot makers are not artists. We don't think about ourselves as artists.

And I think I was one of the first boots boot makers who began naming my boots. And so they were just. They were just craft. They were just functional craft.

And it was cowboy boots themselves that led me into thinking of myself as an artist. And it took me a long time to internalize that and feel comfortable saying it. And so I'm still following that journey.

But I have noticed that as I think of myself as an artist, it has definitely changed the way I think and the way I listen to my own intuition in the way I think about getting designs and being inspired with designs and talking to other artists. Before, I wouldn't have done that because I wasn't an artist.

And now listening to Kwani talk about her process and the tools and the emotional relationship she had with those things, I can understand it. It makes sense to me, and I'm glad that I allowed myself to become that. That person.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:47:51

So awesome. I think for me, a big thing about being a women, a woman artist, is having children and having young children.

While my career was getting going kind of, I mean, there wasn't anybody that I could really turn to that had been there before, because the people that I was aware of that Were artists with families, young families, were only two or three, were five years ahead of me. Like, it just. And so it influences my everyday. Like, I have it. It stresses some of my friends out.

But I have art supplies just out, like readily available for my children. And they come over and they're like, shouldn't you put those away? Like, but it's important to me for my children to see.

See that this is important, important work that I'm doing. Having conversations of, well, why do you have to paint today? Why. Why are you always painting?

But just saying, showing them that, you know, this is something. This is a. A talent that I have. I have a desire to share my story with it and they enjoy it.

The time times that I've incorporated them into the painting. And my youngest actually contributed to one of my paintings. I didn't even notice. This is how well she did it.

She just took a color and kind of spread it around and it looked like a wash. And I didn't notice it until I went to paint that very specific part of the painting. And I was like, oh, I didn't put this there. So it's just kind of fun.

So I kind of tried to preserve a little bit of that in there because it, it fits so well. That didn't stand out to me. But it's. It's neat to see my children start to identify themselves as artists because I loved art. I did art growing up.

My mother was very artistic. And she's an artist in her own right. It's taken her. You talk about being. Identifying yourself as an artist. She's one of those that.

It's taken her years since I've become an artist is really only after that that she started calling herself an artist. Even though she created paintings and did stuff my entire life and I considered her an artist. She did not consider herself an artist.

And so bringing those things and. And allowing others to see themselves that way that are in my family is really important to me. And it just becomes a part of my whole life. It just.

I can't get away from it. It's. It's kind of bad sometimes.

Megan Wimberley: 00:50:47

No, I think that's a beautiful story. I also think it's interesting for you, Kwani, that you just couldn't get away from it. That's what you have drawn to.

And for Lisa, she answered an ad in a paper, you know, and the way in which we get to our craft can. Can be so different and. And you can still end up being a master at what you do, no matter how you decide to start. Start the journey.

Just start the journey. Right. Well, is there. Before we wrap up, is there anything that we didn't cover that you thought of or that you would like for people to know?

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:51:27

I guess my little plug for this show, which I, you know, that's. It's still just a baby show, but I was just so impressed with last year's art that I loved the perspective. You know, we talk about it.

We talk about how perspective is lacking when representing women in the Western world. And I didn't realize, I guess, how lacking until I saw it represented. And a whole show dedicated to showing a new perspective.

And I was like, oh, this is so great, and this is wonderful, and why haven't we been doing this?

But it was just really refreshing to me, and I'm really excited to see more of the pieces and more of that developed going forward as this show becomes more prominent and goes on through the years.

Megan Wimberley: 00:52:24

Yeah, I really appreciate that. And it is a baby show. And so you. Already this year, I'm like, okay, there's things that I'm gonna do differently, you know, because you.

We always want to improve, and. And so, you know, we're going to look at ways to always be improving it. But I do think it's. It is really powerful. It reminds.

What I hope that it does in some ways is. So the Oklahoma Museum of Art did a big exhibit by Kehindi Wiley, who is African American artist, who.

He would mostly pull young black men off the street, and he would say, pick a classic painting, and then I'm going to paint you in this style. And so I got to walk into this exhibition where it was almost all paintings of young black men.

And as a white woman, you know, I've never walked into a place where I didn't see, you know, myself reflected in some capacity. And I think that's a really powerful thing to walk into a place where it flips the common narrative on its head, and it showcases.

And it's not about taking away anybody's story. Right. I think sometimes people think that, like, oh, they're trying to take away our story. No, we just want to tell a full story.

We want to celebrate, like, there are so the. It is amazing how diverse the west is, how.

How many wonderful, amazing stories there are to tell, how many people of different races and creeds and gender, whatever you want. They are out there doing incredible work. And we just want to celebrate all of that. And so I hope that that's what it does.

I hope people walk into the show and are like, whoa, these women are awesome. Like, I didn't know they were doing this, or.

Or on the other hand, I do know they're doing this, and I'm so excited to see them being celebrated in this way. That is what the show is all about, is about celebration, and it's about just acknowledging the full story of the West.

So I. I love that you got that out of it. Lisa, what about you? Is there anything else you wanted to say?

Lisa Sorrell: 00:54:21

I can't think of anything, but I do second that the show is amazing, and. And I love that it just portrays the strength and the diversity of women, not only the art that they create, but who they are that is so important.

And. And it's amazing to see an entire show where. Where that comes to the forefront and. And they're not just. Just pretty faces.

Megan Wimberley: 00:54:47

Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I feel like that should be our tagline.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:54:52

Right?

Megan Wimberley: 00:54:56

Pretty, but also really talented. Like, I don't know, I think of funny little things. Yeah, I know.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:55:02

I.

Megan Wimberley: 00:55:02

You know, I want to end. Oh, sorry, what?

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:55:05

Oh, I said pretty strong faces.

Megan Wimberley: 00:55:07

Oh, I love it.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:55:08

Yes.

Megan Wimberley: 00:55:09

Yeah, I.

You know, so I kind of want to end this on just a really brief story, and that is that when I talk about the show, I always talk about my great grandma, because I think one of the great things about the west is that you can't deny when people are out there working, because they are there. You see them. And so anybody who grew up in this culture knows, like, so Kwani, for you, knows that women are making pottery and in. On ranches.

If you grow up on a ranch, you know that women are out there feeding the cattle and doing all of the things.

And my great grandma, I think about her all the time with the show because she was just this spunky, independent woman who, in her 80s, I think she was like. She was like, 82, at least, I think, and trained a mustang. You know, how many people do that?

And men or women, you know, and so I think about her and I. I think about the fact that we're getting somebody's great grandma is going to. Has.

Will be in the show, you know, and so we get to celebrate these really cool stories, these really cool women, and I really appreciate both of you being a part of that, and I think people are going to love your pieces.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:56:15

Thank you.

Kwani Povi Winder: 00:56:16

Thank you.

Megan Wimberley: 00:56:17

Well, thanks for being a part of the podcast. I will be talking to you soon. Bye. Sounds good.

Lisa Sorrell: 00:56:23

Bye.