The Women Who Shaped the West: A Conversation with Donna Howell-Sickles & Barbara Van Cleve

Megan: 00:04:14

Hi, Donna and Barbara. How are y'all?

Donna: 00:04:16

Great. How are you doing this morning?

Megan: 00:04:18

Doing so well. How about you, Barbara?

Barbara: 00:04:24

I'm fine, thank you. I'm just fine.

I am tired of the wind howling around here, and I'm hoping it'll slow down today, but we don't have any snow to be moved, thank goodness.

Megan: 00:04:39

Well, that's good.

Well, I am just delighted, I mean, truly delighted, to have both of you here today and get to talk to both of you, because y'all are just truly legends of cowgirl artists and. And Western artists. And so it's such a pleasure to be able to have both of you together for this podcast. So thank you so much for being here.

Barbara: 00:05:00

Thank you for having us.

Donna: 00:05:02

It's great. It's always great to talk with Barbara.

Megan: 00:05:07

So. Well, I wanted to just. I kind of want to jump right in. So we're going to.

We're going to start with the cowgirl, because both of you were raised in this Western world. Both of you are cowgirls, and both of you really focus on cowgirls in your work. So what is it to you? To both of you. What is a cowgirl?

Barbara: 00:05:30

Oh, my.

Donna: 00:05:32

Yeah, that's kind of a huge question.

Barbara: 00:05:35

It is a meaty question, isn't it? Go on ahead. Donna.

Donna: 00:05:41

What is a cowgirl?

I think in my work, it has evolved to be just a person of competence, involved in her life on a daily, very active role, happy, where she is able to see the laughter as well as the hardship and to share it with others.

Barbara: 00:06:05

That's great. That's great. And I think the fact that your cowgirls are always so happy is really wonderful.

Now I'm stuck with the camera because I couldn't draw or couldn't paint, but I did see Life magazine and all of the black and white photo documentaries about women in the old days. Not women ranchers, necessarily, but women very much active.

And I thought, you know, I'm kind of tired of hearing people talk about how the west was won by man. They did this and they did that. I even remember some guy telling me, well, a donor pass.

You know, the men were the ones who were really saving the people there. And I said, sorry, Sunny, I think you better go back and reread your history.

The women were the ones who were alive, going out to get wood for the fires and trying to make the food so these men who were sick with influenza would not die.

And I just was so moved by the fact that the women that I grew up with on the ranch and in the ranching community worked not only out inside, but also outside.

They loved being there, helping their husbands with the feeding of the cattle, taking care of the horses, all of those activities that are natural to a ranch life, but they were not confined to the house unless they wanted to be.

And I selected women to photograph ranch women who wanted not only take care of the house, but to also help outside with the work that had to be done, driving the teams, helping load the hay, and all of that kind of activity that fills the winter days.

Megan: 00:08:32

Yeah. I want to go back, Barbara, to your book Hard Twist.

I was looking at it this morning, and I was reading the introduction, the forward, and I want to read this quote from Thomas McCarthy Gain, who did the Ford. And it's. It's not a full quote, so it's got chunks missing.

So if you have this book, it's bits and pieces of the for, but it says we have not sufficiently been made to feel the presence of women in the history of the West. But with the most cursory look at Barbara Van Cleave's pictures, one knows immediately and deeply that women were always the heart of the story.

She's not revising a story so much as completing one that was barely half told. The women who, in their daily lives have built this distinctive culture have quietly been at the work for a very long time.

They have always been here, and it has always mattered. For those of us who love the west and make it our life, make our lives in it, this news has the power of the best things that are saved for last.

Donna: 00:09:35

That's a great quote. Absolutely, a great quote. And that's.

As I think about it, the reason I chose the cowgirl was because, looking at Western art way back in the 70s, there were no women depicted in art at that time that matched anybody I knew. We. The cowgirl, the Western woman, was so much more than any of those depictions and so much more colorful and so much more. Laughter.

I just kind of, you know, took off on my own to amend our visual history, because they've been there, like Barbara said, the whole time. They've just. Their story has not been told. Women are not as good at telling their own stories as guys are.

And until very recently, there weren't that many women recording the stories of women. There were just men recording the stories of women, and that wasn't what they were interested in.

Megan: 00:10:32

Yeah, it's. It's such a.

Barbara: 00:10:34

Yes.

Megan: 00:10:35

Go ahead, Barbara.

Barbara: 00:10:37

Well, I was gonna say when I started out and I was gonna do this project on women ranchers, And I called it hard twist.

And which meant the old fashioned lariat rope, which was made by twisting three strands of hemp in making it wet and then twisting it together and literally milking the water out of it and then setting it to dry. Twisted. It would never break. It wouldn't really give up. And to me, that was the Western woman. The Western woman on a ranch who was working there.

It was either she was either married with a husband who needed her help, or she was running it herself and then got help from either hired men or family members. And I wanted to document them.

And I was told when I went to consider this that, well, we've got men photographers back in New York City who've done this. And I said, oh, really? How much ranch work have any of these photographers done? Do they know what it is to castrate a calf, to brand, to earmark?

Do they know what it's for? And I went on and on, as is my way, and I said, I think you better get somebody who knows the life, who's done it, who really understands it.

And if there are no women photographers that you find have done that, I'm volunteering because I've done it. I've lived the life. I'm a photographer, and I love ranch life, and that's what I photograph.

Megan: 00:12:58

Yeah, I think it's so interesting because I grew up in the Western culture as well, and I talk a lot about my great grandma because she was such an independent spirit and she was so creative. And I think when she was like, I think she was 86 and she trained a mustang, she was just brilliant with animals.

And still to this day, when I walk around major Western art exhibits, exhibits, I'm like, where is her story? Where are the stories of these women that I personally saw?

And that I think the thing that's so important about the work that the two of you are doing, as this work is expanding, is that people who are part of the west, they know, like, they know women are there, because you cannot deny that a woman is out there doing those work. You see her doing the work. But the Western culture is so big right now and like, quote, unquote, outsiders are viewing these shows.

And when the story of women, when stories of women are missing, it's not like you, like it says in your book, it's not the complete picture. And so people get this idea, if they didn't grow up in this culture, that, oh, it's just men doing those things and it's simply not true.

Barbara: 00:14:04

That's right. That Is right.

Megan: 00:14:09

What.

One of the things that, that Barbara, you already kind of mentioned about Donna's work, but I see this in both of you and I, I really, I mean, I truly adore this in both of you, is that there is such a sense of joy and such a sense of a very peaceful confidence that I really admire in both of you. And I wonder, is that something that each of you had innately or is that something that you have learn to develop and how did you do it?

Donna: 00:14:43

That's a good question.

I'm not sure, but I know in my case and with friends that I've had, growing up on a ranch gives you a lot of isolated, by yourself time and being, you know, the age that both of us are. It was before there were any of those devices that could take your time when you were all by yourself. It was just your time.

And I have met a lot of rural kids who are far more independent, self reliant and creative than city kids say.

And just using that as another opposite because we were on our own for our entertainment, we didn't have TV even, and we were just an isolated group of kids. And just because you're all neighbors doesn't mean you all really get along, but you get along because that's what you've got.

So you develop all kinds of skills for coping with things and making and you know, making a dry dirt gully an amazingly magical place to play. So I think, I think that that kind of alone time as a child fosters a lot of creativity and a lot of independence.

And with both of those come a kind of confidence that you might not even know you have.

Megan: 00:16:05

And what about that, that sense of joy, Donna, is all of your cowgirls are so happy and joyful. What was it that, that drew to you, to that portrayal of them? And I think I see that in you too, as a person.

Donna: 00:16:21

Well, I was attracted to it because back in the, gosh, 70s, I guess, when I was forming my opinion of the avant garde, there was a lot of sorrow and angst and, you know, soul rending, you know, activities. And I realized in my own life that that joy defines you as clearly as your sorrow. And it's one of those things that you don't miss until it's gone.

So I decided that my women, or my figures in general, even if they're guys, were going to be at a state where they knew where they were.

They were, they were there by choice and they were appreciating that, you know, you're living your good old Days, whatever day that happens to be in your life. A little bit of self awareness there and a little bit of sharing the joy and the magic that surrounds you when you're out in nature.

I mean, hatching chicken, chicklets and all kinds of things that just have a whole. A whole basket full of joy there. If you want to look at it that way. I mean, total miracles every day.

Megan: 00:17:29

That is so.

Donna: 00:17:30

I think that's where it came from.

Megan: 00:17:32

That's so powerful. And I love the way you said that. That is just beautiful.

And I think no matter, you know, all of us have fears and struggles in our lives or the things that we see around us that make us feel sad. And I think it's so easy to want to get lost in despair or to be sad in the work or like overwhelmed in the work that we're doing.

And this idea of bringing that joy to everything, I think and that. That defines us. And I think in. In a lot of ways, it's our power.

I don't know if y'all have read Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl, but he was. He talks that he was a Holocaust survivor and he talks about his experience there. And it was kind of a similar approach of like, kind of that.

Resisting the sadness through finding ways to. To find joy and be in power of your or your inner life, which I think is just such an incredible thing. What about for you? Oh, go ahead.

Barbara: 00:18:29

No, I was just going to say I thought Donna put it very, very well. I have to say I am envious as an artist because I am tied to the camera. I can't draw campaign, and she can make things look better than I can.

I have to get reality, and I can go around and I could say, smile. You know, I'm not into that. I am not trying to pose anybody.

I am just trying to capture the moments in their life, in the lives of these ranch women that would be real as they are, and that would get the outsider to see the image, the photograph, and say, you know, this must be a pretty good life.

Well, I can tell you as growing up as a youngster on the ranch, doing all the things I did, having to learn how to do things, having to learn how to take hold, and if I don't have the exact piece of equipment to get something done, I can still do it because I'm creative and that's what you have to be. But I also agree and think this is so important. We are cheerful, basically. Ranch women are basically cheerful.

Every woman I photographed was cheerful, even Though they had hard, hard times. I'd never photographed anybody when a favorite old horse died or they lost a particular milk cow that they loved.

And, you know, those are the realities of ranch life. And I do think women and horses have a particular bond. I think horses are so sensitive to. Women really are.

And women, of course, respond to the horses, too, which is lovely. And it helps your life to be so much better. You're thinking, not of me the way it seems to be today. Me, me, me.

And you're thinking, instead of the animals, you use the animals you serve the animals you ultimately send off to market to be food for somebody else. And that's pretty important. But you have to have a sense of reality, a sense of yourself. And these women do have that. They're not mean.

They're just strong. And that is important, I think. And women of my era certainly have that. You grew up with it. We all, I think, grow up with it.

And I also think we all have pretty good senses of humor, probably passed on down by, in my case, my father.

Megan: 00:22:31

Yeah. I want to talk about your dad in just a second, but I wanted to touch on you.

You talk about Donna being able to make the work that look the way she wants, whereas you're capturing reality. But one of the things that really sticks out in your work to me is that capturing this juxtaposition between the feminine and the rugged and the.

The grit and the grace and the.

The fact, like you said, that these animals are ultimately going to be sent off for slaughter in most cases, but that they are cared for with such passion. And that's a really beautiful part of this ranching story that people who are not in it maybe don't get to see.

And so I think your work is bringing that story to life.

Barbara: 00:23:14

Thank you.

Donna: 00:23:16

I think the story Barbara tells with the reality of her pieces is so incredibly valuable. What I do is trying to show the spirit of the woman, and I do have the luxury of moving the bits and pieces around until I find them pleasing.

But she is working with a reality that is hard to see unless you have that kind of patience, and hard to see unless you know where to look and how to appreciate it. And I think adds an enormous depth to the feeling of. Of a woman in the American west of any decade.

Megan: 00:23:51

Yeah, for sure.

Barbara: 00:23:52

Well said, Donna. Well said. Thank you.

Megan: 00:23:57

You. So, Barbara, you. You talk about your dad a lot, and he seems to have been such an influential person for your art, even.

Can you talk about that a lot, a bit?

Barbara: 00:24:08

Oh, yes.

Megan: 00:24:09

I think I said that backwards. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Barbara: 00:24:15

I can't talk about anything with ranching a little bit.

Megan: 00:24:20

Well, I think I said a lot of it, so maybe that's more accurate.

Barbara: 00:24:24

I love it. It was a life on horseback, and it distresses me today to see it changing. You know, the harnesses we used are just hanging in the barn now.

And there people just aren't using horses the way they used to. They're using those darn machines. And my nephews are also ones who use those machines.

And I went out one day, saw moving cattle and then pushing some horses out of the way with an ATV and a motorcycle. And I was horrified.

And I said to him afterwards, listen, guys, your grandfather and great grandfather will be turning over in their grave to see you doing that with a blankety blank machine. And I said, why are you using machines instead of a good horse? I said, the machine will quit and it's going to be cold, comfortable.

A horse never quits. And it's always warm. It's wonderful. And they said, well, Bibbs, we're saving so much time.

And I said, what are you doing with all the time you're saving? Dead silence. So I said, my point is made. Horses are superior, but they take more time.

You have to feed them carefully, you have to water them, you have to groom them. You know, you've got cockleburrows to get out of the manes and tails. You've got just to make them feel good.

I mean, the horse is next best thing to a human being, I think. And they've got pride, too, and you have to help them with it. And I don't know, I just know that it is changing.

And some time ago, when my mother was still alive, my dad had died before Mother did. And I said. I said, I found a card that said change on the front of it. And you opened it up and it said, don't you just hate it?

And I gave it to Mother because she always did not care for change. So after she died in the thing she left for me, there was the card. And I opened it up and said, don't you just hate it?

And then below she said, now you know what I was thinking? And I thought, okay, mom, your point made. But she had a great sense of humor, too. Both Mother and Dad had.

They enjoyed life so much, enjoyed one another, enjoyed ranching so much. And to see how people love a life like that that I was brought up in is really wonderful. And I have to say they're doing a documentary on Me now.

And it goes through the low parts of my life, up to the high parts, and then through the low parts again and then on up again to the high parts. That's life. Everybody experiences that, the highs and lows. So it's nothing different except it's in ranch life, in reality, not in a big city.

You know, if we have to raise our own food, oh, we can own a ranch. I remember as a kid we had a huge garden and one of my jobs was to hoe the garden, which kept me out of mischief for sure.

But I got to eat every carrot I wanted. So life was good. To work at hoeing.

Megan: 00:29:09

That's such a beautiful story. And that, you know, to end that after talking about this digital and you know, like machinery sort of thing.

But you're talking about the simple reward of a carrot pulled fresh from the ground, which is such a lovely comparison.

Barbara: 00:29:26

Thank you.

Megan: 00:29:27

Donna, did you, did you. Were you influenced with going into art through either of your parents or anyone in your family?

Donna: 00:29:36

No, it was a completely alien idea to the people I come from and they were appalled. Quite truthfully, my, my mother has. Will remember this forever.

Her comment after she'd had a time to think about it for a little while was, I've never met an artist that was worth his salt. Okay, one, she'd never met an artist. I don't know where she got that.

Maybe she saw Jackson Pollock's picture in look magazine or something, who knows? And you're destined for a life of poverty and depravity, not necessarily in that order.

So it wasn't, it wasn't an idea that was received with open arms, I can say that. But they did come to terms with it after 20 or so years.

Megan: 00:30:25

So what, what was that like continuing forward with that dream with your parents being so, you know, objected to it?

Donna: 00:30:34

Well, I was just a hard headed kid and I knew it was right for me. I knew I had something to say and that was what I wanted to do.

Mother at a family reunion once said she took partial credit for my success because if she hadn't pushed so hard against it, I wouldn't have pushed so hard for it. I kind of almost liked that. But always kind of a sharp comment. But I surrounded myself with people who also believed in what I believed in.

My husband was very, very supportive. My friends were very supportive. My fellow artists were always and still are very encouraging. So it was, you know, you, it would be.

Have been great to have family support. But I got here the way I got here and I Wouldn't be me if it were any other path.

Megan: 00:31:26

Yeah. And I think something y'all both touched on is like, the. Those highs and lows. And, you know, I'm sure at that time that felt kind of like a low.

And can y'all kind of speak to that, handling those low points? Because it's easy to say, like, yeah, they go through. You go through them and make. They make you stronger.

But what about somebody who's in their low point right now and they're like, thinking about giving up? Like, what's something that kind of helps you to keep going?

Donna: 00:31:52

What I do is you can't talk yourself out of it. And you're going to run around, you're going to wear a trail around that bush because you're going to go around it and around it and around it.

You're going to come to the same point over and over again. And when it really feels like this was a stupid idea and a waste of time and who cares anyway? You've just got to go in the studio and do it.

Take Nike's advice, just do it. Because inspiration rarely comes when you're thinking about not having any.

It really strikes most frequently when you're immersed in the middle of creative project. That's how I handle it. I just go to the studio.

Barbara: 00:32:28

Yeah, good point. Good point. I have to say that I didn't have any encouragement about becoming a photographer.

As a matter of fact, when I announced to my parents I had begged for a camera, they gave me one when I was 11. And from there on out, it was Katie bar the door. I was going to be a photographer.

And I announced it to mother and dad, and they said, now wait a minute. You women do not make much of a living from photography. It just isn't a real career for women.

So I thought about that, and later on I moved into teaching because my father taught us. After dinner, at the dinner table, after we finished dessert, then we would start talking about what we learned that day.

Dad asked the questions, dad gave us the information if we needed it. And it was a case of really enjoying how the business of asking questions, getting answers, all of that.

So when I was told of no uncertain terms, I couldn't be a photographer because you couldn't make a living. A woman couldn't make a living. So I went into teaching.

And I, first of all, teaching gave me three to four months clear at the ranch every summer, too. That was the only job that did, and I loved it. And I loved teaching, sharing what little I knew and stimulating Students, hopefully to keep going.

It was, it was. I don't know. I loved sharing. I just loved sharing what little I knew. And if they wanted to follow me, great, because I just.

Nobody could tell me something couldn't be done. I was stubborn enough to believe that was. No, that was a falsehood. I could get it done in time.

Megan: 00:35:12

I'm seeing some similarities between the two of you and Yalls stories, which is really interesting to get to, to see that. Donna, did you, as you were growing your career, did you do any other work on the side or did you just fully focus on art?

Donna: 00:35:29

No, I was determined from the minute I graduated from Texas Tech that I was going to make it in the arts. And being a fairly competent person, I did not want an accidental career. So my job resume in the early days read a little bit like science fiction.

I was cooking a hunting camp. I drove a special ed bus so I could have a split shift. I did all kinds of random jobs, but I never had a real career.

I was a salesperson for a printing shop for a while. But these were not full time jobs and they were nothing that could be misconstrued as a career by anyone, actually. And that was on purpose.

And I was just always convinced that I could make this work. And you know, any, any woman in the arts at that time was going to run into opposition.

And even in college there were teachers who told me that if I chose Western art, I was just practically guaranteeing that I would not make it as an artist. So all of those things are, you know, like Barbara, a challenge is a challenge. You pick up the gauntlet and go for it. But.

But it was what I wanted, so I was willing to work like that. And at the beginning of my career, I didn't have a commitment or children, so it was easy to work strange hours and squeeze the rest of life in.

It gets more difficult as you get older to approach it that way. But I never doubted that I could make it work, you know.

And it has been a constant balancing juggling of change because the market changes, the people change, your attitudes, your own attitudes toward your work change slightly. And what I thought was really, really cool, critically important at the beginning, maybe, now I just see that as important for background noise.

And I've moved on to other issues and there are other things that I want to say, but it's. A life as an artist is a constant source of change. Most lives maybe, but this is the only one I know.

And I know that every year or so external influences give you wars and Things that you have to cope with, because all of that influences how people look at what you do. And people have to look at what you do for you to keep going. So you do. You just keep going.

Megan: 00:38:35

What do.

Do either of you feel that there was a point or multiple points or opportunities where you really started feeling like, okay, this art career of mine is. Is moving. It's really moving now. This is a real solid thing for me.

Donna: 00:38:52

I don't quite understand, I guess, like.

Megan: 00:38:56

You know, early on, you know, you're figuring out the business, you're trying to get it going, and maybe you're still kind of working those little odd jobs here and there. Was there like a something you did or a break you had that really helped you to push your career forward in a way that you started feeling that.

It wasn't so much the like, okay, I'm doing this work to get it going, which we're always doing, but more that now I'm doing the work to just keep continuing it where you felt a little more solid, that that art career itself had had some solid footing to it.

Barbara: 00:39:28

I felt that I was not concerned about developing my career as such.

What I was concerned with was documenting a life I loved and that I felt was so underrepresented accurately and that, you know, people would have to like what I do or not like it. I wasn't going to cater to them. I was going to try and be as honest and as truly representational as I could be.

But it took me a lifetime to do it because I only began to have success much later in life when I was older and wiser. I guess.

Donna: 00:40:26

I think my. My path was a little different there.

I started, gosh, once I finally got my work out into galleries, which would have been early 80s, I guess by late 80s, it was a. It was a race, you know, to keep up.

And it was exhilarating for me to realize that what the visions that are inside my head spoke to other people on an emotional level, which is not something you set as a goal. It's just something that sometimes happens.

And realizing that all of these ideas that were stuffed in my head that I had really not ever thought about sharing, were exactly what people wanted to hear and see at that point in time. So it. Art was a. It became a dead run for me and act. I thrive on stuff like that. So I absolutely loved it.

I had a young daughter and a husband and, you know, we had the house in Frisco, Texas, of all places. And it was a great. I mean, it was Great.

It was managing to squeeze enough of your life with your partner and your child in to make it feel full and happy and satisfying. And also squeeze in all.

All these ideas that you had about art, things you wanted to say, pull it, drag in the mythology, drag in the fairy tales, drag in the things that informed me as a ranch kid, and see if somebody else needed to hear that story again, too. So it was thrilling. But after a decade and a half of four hours of sleep at night, it was also a little exhausting.

Megan: 00:42:06

That's so interesting, Donna, because I feel like everything you just described, I feel like every one of your pieces that I've seen, there is an element of that to it. This running and being full of all of these things. I feel like that's kind of what you're painting. Your work speaks to me about.

Donna: 00:42:24

Oh, great. See, it's always different what my work says to me. And the.

In the things that it gives me that I can't survive without are not at all what people who look at it. It's not how they respond. Sometimes we almost match.

But you have to create the piece and then you kind of tamp down your own ideas and send it out into the world, because everybody who views it approaches it with their own baggage and their own set of mythologies and their own image preferences and color preferences and. And what red means to them is rarely what red means to me. So it's. It's. It's been fascinating to learn about how people approach your art.

I mean, especially since I make it up. Barbara's art, because it is literal reality, I am sure, impacts people in the same variety of ways that mine does, because my concepts of a.

Of a rainstorm on an open prairie are different from somebody else's. So it. I just. I love that that's what imagery does. Imagery speaks such a vague language that it's. It. It has this massive appeal. And you.

You can be standing in front of an image and talking with somebody and you're both describing something, and, you know, it may sound like it's the same, but I'd be willing to bet that inside our heads, it is not the same. And yet it still creates a bond. Isn't that strange?

Megan: 00:43:52

It's one of the most fascinating and scary things about art is that you do your thing with your intention and then you send it out in the world, because really, the work is not done every single time that it's looked at, it has something new done to it.

Barbara: 00:44:07

It's different. It has different aspects. Absolutely.

Megan: 00:44:15

Yeah. Barbara, what about with. Are you still working in film today or do you work more with digital?

Barbara: 00:44:27

I work with digital because I am on a location where I would have to feed into the water supply, not the city water supply, but the water supply in this county. My chemicals, and some of those chemicals are not good for animals or people. And there's no way around it. So I've gone digital.

I have to say I love Photoshop because it's the easiest way to remove scratches and dust. And here in Montana, where we have good breezes, it's a lot of dust and I hate this stuff. But. But it's there, so I don't want it.

And the digital gives me the easiest way to clean up my negatives, make sure things are good.

Megan: 00:45:41

Now, I heard you talking on Mark Sublet's podcast about photographing and you were saying about taking the photo when the horse is on the rise at, say, a gallop. And at first I thought you were talking about for the horse to look good in your image.

But when I watched some of the things on your website, I began to wonder, are you taking photos on a galloping horse?

Donna: 00:46:05

Sometimes, yes, of course.

Megan: 00:46:08

And so you're taking, so you're taking the photo when the horse is on the rise because it's smooth at that moment, it's.

Barbara: 00:46:16

The horse is on the rise and it's going to hesitate for a couple of seconds up there at the top of its lift. And that's what I wanted to get.

Megan: 00:46:27

That's so incredible. I just like the idea that you are out there galloping on a horse. Taking these photos is just, I, I mean, how many people are doing that?

You know, I go back to thinking about those galleries you approached and like those New York artists, there's like no comparison to what you are doing.

Barbara: 00:46:49

That's right. And I made that very clear to them too, to the various galleries who tried to tell me, well, we have a male photographer who photographs ranch life.

And I said, oh, really? And I happen to know who it was.

And that person was using a tripod, never shot from on horseback at that time, and I suspect did not photograph from on horseback ever. But things change, people change, and you just never know.

But I had a lifetime of being on horseback and I had my own horses and I had some darn good horses who, when I pulled the rein up for hesitation, they give it to me.

Megan: 00:47:45

That's awesome.

Barbara: 00:47:46

I mean, it takes a good, good horse to work with you if you are going to do a lot of photography on horseback. And of Course, that's where I wanted to be. I'm short, horse gave me extra elevation. I'm slow, horse gave me speed.

I needed that animal was a real partner.

Megan: 00:48:12

How does your equipment hold up to that? Huh? How does your equipment hold up to. I mean, you're putting it in some pretty rugged situations.

Barbara: 00:48:21

No, it's on my neck and shoulder. And it was such that I use a zoom lens because that's the easiest way to really compose when I'm on horseback.

Lens here, camera hanging here, reins in my left hand. And then if I needed to, if I saw the picture I wanted to get, grab that, bring it over, whoa, my mare a little bit and make the shot.

Megan: 00:48:54

That is just so cool. Donna, how about you?

Are you photographing the women that you are drawing and painting, or are you doing this more from just visual images in your head?

Donna: 00:49:06

I do a lot of photographs. All of mine, unlike Barbara's, are posed because I have already. I come to a session with ideas of what I want to work on, I think.

And you know, each model brings their own something to the drawing because you switch, you draw the same person too long and you memorize all their features and it's no longer doing you the kind of good that you need. So then you switch and each person that you bring into your drawings or into your studio has a different, I don't know, it's a feel.

I did a body of work using a new model way back in the 90s, late 90s, and I shipped them to my gallery to be framed in, in New Mexico. And when I got to the show later that year, the framer met me at the door and goes, who's your new model? And is she married?

So it, they bring, they bring something to your work as, as well as what you put into it.

So, yeah, I have models, I do sketches, I draw about 30 minutes on each piece and then I take a bunch of photographs and then sometimes it'll be six months before I get back to that started drawing and add some, you know, that turn it into a finished piece. Usually by then my idea has changed. But a good strong drawing is always going to be a good, strong start. So you can go somewhere else with it.

Megan: 00:50:33

I have to ask a follow up question. I mean, did you, were you a matchmaker with your new model?

Donna: 00:50:39

No, too much. A, too much of an age difference and just two states away.

Megan: 00:50:48

Well, that's so interesting that sometimes you're coming back to your work six months later and I. Can you speak a little bit more about that?

Donna: 00:50:58

Well, I'm. Okay. So I had an idea of a. See, I wanted her looking back over her shoulder, but I wanted all the action to be in front of her.

So she was looking back with an air. All this other stuff was say, coming toward her.

And then when I pull it out, I might not remember exactly what I thought was going to be in that big empty spot on, on the paper or the canvas. I might have. I might go, well, I remember, but I don't like that idea anymore. So then you just fill in the blank with something else.

Okay, what could she be? Is she avoiding? Is she protecting something from what she sees behind them? Is she. I don't know why. Why is the caution of that backward glance there?

And you just rebuild the story from that.

Megan: 00:51:44

Okay, that's super interesting. That's cool. Barbara, it looked like maybe you had a thought.

Barbara: 00:51:51

Me?

Megan: 00:51:52

Yeah. Maybe not.

Barbara: 00:51:55

Maybe not.

Megan: 00:51:58

Okay, no worries. I, you know, I thought it might be interesting.

I didn't have this in my notes, but if, and you two already know each other, but for this podcast, if each of you were to either say something about the other or ask a question of the other person, I, I think that would be really interesting to know for the. You these, you know, to just the cowgirl artists, like the OG cowgirl artists, like, what would you say about each other?

Or what question would you ask each other for others to hear?

Donna: 00:52:31

I want to go first. Okay. I have known of Barbara's work since probably, I'm not sure when she started showing in Santa Fe, but it was an upstairs gallery.

The first time I saw her work and her photographs, it had to be late 80s. So this is way pre digital so that any, any dodging and dust removing that she did on photographs, she did by hand.

And these were like, These were like 3ft by 4ft or something. Maybe not that big, but they were enormous. And I was one thinking, wow, how did anybody do that much work on that?

And how do you get those dark darks? And how do you transport somebody from Santa Fe to Montana in a. In a visual heartbeat like that? So I like the drama. I liked.

What else I couldn't figure out is how long do you have to wait to get the clouds to match the movement of the horses? That part just blew me away. So I've been following her since I guess it was the mid-80s, I'm not sure.

And I didn't really meet her until the cowgirl hall of Fame luncheon things. And this would have also been maybe early 90s or something, but she came to those.

So I always, I made it a point the first time I started run and be a fan girl and introduce myself and say how much I admired her body of work and what she had done. And then we just run into each, I mean, we, she knew I met her when she still had red hair. How's that? And mine was brown, so there you go.

Barbara: 00:54:11

Oh, my. Well, I have known of Donna's work for years, and I loved it because the women were full of joy. Always that.

And there was always that different, the different positions, how they were related to the animals, dogs or cattle, bulls, whatever. But it was, it was, to me, magical. And I just thought, oh, I'm really envious. I wish I could do that kind of thing. But I was stuck with a camera.

And so the point was that I just had to bow my head, push harder into the harness, move ahead.

Megan: 00:55:08

That's awesome. I, I, I, I'm sad to say, Barbara, that I actually didn't discover your work until more recently.

But, Donna, I remember we didn't really have money for art when I was a kid, but if I'm remembering this correctly, I'm pretty sure my mom pulled a picture out of a magazine of one of Donna's pieces, and we had it in a, a frame. And it, I, I remember where it was sitting in this little ranch house.

And, and so I grew up being so inspired by that and, you know, thinking about being a younger child that was so interested in art and her, My mom was an artist as well.

And so to see Donna's work and then now as an adult, to be able to be talking to you about your story, I think it's just so cool because it gave, it gave a frame of reference for the things that, that we could do. And I knew that I could be an artist because my mom was, is very skilled with drawing. But it, it's just so cool to kind of see that come full circle.

And now, Barbara, now I'm really just like, really diving into your work, and it's so inspiring. So now I just, you know, I wish I would have known about you sooner, but now I'm really diving into that.

And so it's, it's just, I guess what I'm saying is, on behalf of all of all of the artists today, you know, of, like, thank you for the work that y'all put in to begin with, because like you said, you know, we weren't seeing those women all the time. And it gives a frame of reference. You know, I just think how many how many little girls saw Barbara's photos or Donna's paintings and.

And were inspired to. To pursue that.

So it's like just a gift that keeps on giving, I guess, you know, and hopefully we give that to the next generation too, with the work that we're doing.

Barbara: 00:56:49

Well, I think the next generation has to not watch any movies that are so called Westerns. I think we've got a lot of soap opera there where everybody wears western hats. And I think that's exactly what it is.

People should go back to my work or Donna's work to see the reality of western life.

Megan: 00:57:21

Yeah. Isn't that kind of funny?

You know, I think about now in the context of like the legend, the legend of the west and kind of the legend of the cowboy, you know, and how that you're thinking about, you know, the shows that are out now, how those stories are kind of of switching. That is an interesting thought.

Barbara: 00:57:38

Oh, well, don't get me going on that one. I could sure rip them apart.

Donna: 00:57:46

That legend of the art that you referenced, that legend of the art that you referenced has always been there. I mean, the Tao School definitely was painting a mythology. They weren't painting a total reality.

So there's something about the west itself that so captivates our imagination. And in some cases it's actually a global captivation that it has something.

Something that's tied to that self confidence that you talked about earlier.

It has something that's tied to a concept of competence and capability and a little bit of daring and a little bit of bravery and a little bit of courage and a little bit of love thrown in. That act. More so than actually living in the west was just living in a harsh environment.

And it still is very much living in a harsh environment in many cases. But the idea of living in the west means so much to so many people and that I think most art is based on the idea of living in the West.

Unless you have a photographer like Barbara Van Cleave, whose her work is based on actual factual living in the West. So it's two different. Yeah. The reality of living with wisps. The captivated by image. But. But it. But lenses can lie too, a little bit.

But that's not a bad thing. It just makes better art.

Megan: 00:59:19

Yeah, well, and even, you know, whoever's behind the camera is also choosing what stories to tell and what stories to leave out and that.

Donna: 00:59:26

Absolutely, you know. Absolutely.

Barbara: 00:59:27

Yeah.

Megan: 00:59:28

What do you think that it is, Barbara? About what are people captivated about the West? What do you think that is oh.

Barbara: 00:59:37

Everybody wants to be a rancher.

And it really trickles me, you see them, even in my little community here, unfortunately, you know, and they can manage to find acreage, maybe 20 acres with luck or 40 acres that they can buy and call a ranch. Well, because of the quantity of the land.

But you know, my granddad said to me ages ago when I bought a little chunk of land from him and he said, listen, money's here today and gone tomorrow. Land goes on forever and God isn't making any more of it. If you ever sell it, you'll never get it back. And that really is the truth.

And I am so surprised at long time old ranchers who kind of cave in and sell their land. And I feel sorry for them in part. They don't have family who is committed to ranching and they know how hard it is.

It's these newcomers who have no idea what the work is of a ranch until they get into it. And then they think, hmm, I know a story of a guy here in our county who, he quit a high tech job he had.

He kind of was the head man there and decided he was going to really do ranching. He was going to be physically involved. He wasn't going to hire people to do that work. So he did.

Well after two years, so the gossip goes, the story goes, he told his wife, this is too hard work, my body's breaking down. He said we've got to sell it and I'm going back to what I was doing. So he sold it.

Well, probably, I don't know, but probably subdivided it or broke it up into small quantities. And that's the problem. There isn't respect for the land the way most ranchers have it.

I think the ones who cave in and sell are because they have no family members to carry it on. They just, most of those kids know what kind of work it is and they're not getting into it.

Now I suppose maybe down in oil country, Texas, Oklahoma and that area you've got that black gold stuff that just comes up out of the ground. Well now that's a whole different matter. That's a lot easier kind of ranching to do and people would go for that, don't blame them. But the other.

It's a lot of work and it's wonderful if you can pass it on to your children, grandchildren, great grandchildren. I'm fortunate in my family because my grand nieces and grand nephews and great grands all, primarily all want to keep the ranch going. Thank God.

Thank you.

Donna: 01:03:37

Are lucky with that. That doesn't happen that often.

Barbara: 01:03:41

I know it. Well, we still hang on to it up here in Montana. We. We're kind of stubborn. I guess.

Donna: 01:03:51

A lot of Texas hangs on to its land too. My, my, my. The ranch I grew up on was passed down to my brother intact, so it's still in one piece, too. That's a very Texas attitude there.

Barbara: 01:04:07

Yes. To pass it on to the boy.

Donna: 01:04:09

Right.

Barbara: 01:04:10

Yeah, but.

Donna: 01:04:11

But I wasn't going to ranch it, and he was, so it made perfect sense.

Barbara: 01:04:15

Oh, well, then that does. Yeah.

Donna: 01:04:18

Yeah. No, I was gonna. I draw paper horses.

Barbara: 01:04:25

Okay. That's all right. Whatever it takes.

Megan: 01:04:31

Yeah. I think that that's maybe. I feel like maybe one of the hardest things to communicate. And I don't. And I don't know. I'm sure there are people doing it.

It's kind of outside this conversation, but if you didn't grow up in a place with the spacious land and the horses and all of the. The deep sense of tragedy when those things are lost, I don't. I. I don't think people that didn't grow up in that can understand that.

You know, I think they can understand it from an outside perspective of.

Oh, yeah, like, now that's like a subdivision, and it's not as pretty, but something about the work and the blood and sweat and tears that have gone into a place. And.

Donna: 01:05:17

And.

Megan: 01:05:17

And the fact that, like you said, once it's gone, it's gone. And if you didn't have that innate connection, that deep connection with it, I. I don't know. I hear a lot of.

You know, we do this women's work show, and there was one of the ranch partners. They went under while the. After the artist had gone out and taken the pictures. And we were able to put that into the catalog to explain that. But.

But it's different to hear that than it is to have been there and to feel it.

Barbara: 01:05:47

Very true. And it is a tragedy.

Megan: 01:05:53

Gotta take care of it.

Barbara: 01:05:55

Yeah.

Megan: 01:05:56

Oh, yeah.

Barbara: 01:05:59

What if it happens? That they ever gonna sell? I hope I am in my grave at the base of the Crazy Mountains. Well, deep. When that happens.

Megan: 01:06:19

Yeah. Hopefully we'll. We'll continue. You know, it. We gotta. We gotta grow food. So, you know, hopefully we'll be smart about it as we go. But.

Yeah, I think just to. To.

I guess pulling this back to what your art is yours and what Donna's art is, is y'all are presenting the beauty that something that is truly, truly beautiful and so deeply connected to land and that ranchers Understand that value of that land and that, you know, if somebody is listening to this who isn't deeply connected with that, like that's something that is innately tied up in the value of this art, is that connection to the land and the place.

Barbara: 01:06:57

Right.

Donna: 01:06:58

It's people and the people.

Megan: 01:07:01

Yeah.

Barbara: 01:07:01

Yeah. The best reproduction that the artist can give of the land, of the people, of the animals. All involved in this activity called branching.

Megan: 01:07:17

Right? Yeah. If I'm going to ask all just a couple more questions, I think the first, if you were going to.

We have artists at all stages of their career that listen to this podcast, but if you were going to share a bit of wisdom or advice to working artists, what would that be?

Donna: 01:07:39

Oh, yikes. That's always a hard one. Keep working for one thing, because all the good stuff comes from the work itself. Don't be quite so hard on yourself. You're.

You're learning. If you're doing it, you're learning. Also be able to take criticism.

And by that I mean don't run in and take all the red out of your painting or whatever it was they said that made you think you needed to do that.

Listen to what they have to say and then try to get an honest look at your own work and say, do I need to listen to that or can I just let that roll off my back? Because as an artist, you have to have such thick skin.

Because even well meaning people will say the most hurtful things and not have a clue that they've just done that. So you can't listen, but don't take it personally. And that is a really hard thing to do. But that's. You have to do that to make it.

You can't take every critique to heart. I mean, there's always a chance that the guy just doesn't like you or didn't like the fact that you're in his art world. Who knows?

Barbara: 01:08:51

Yeah, I, I just think that you have to let the criticism roll off your back. Personally, I don't believe you should take it too seriously at all. Because I would think this has not happened to me, but then I'm just stubborn.

But it could. For some artists who are perhaps more sensitive and a lot younger just getting started, it could dominate the way they think about their work.

And that's not good. You have to be, it has to be open so you can be more creative, so you can try things that are different.

Donna: 01:09:43

Yeah, look at everybody's work. You're all, we're all saying something different, but we're all involved with creating beauty and an image that has meaning in our surroundings.

So you look at other people's work, listen to what they have to say. But like Barbara says, it's essential that you be uninfluenced on a deep level by that work.

I mean, if it's something you need to hear, great, but it's got to be your work. It's not. It's not you trying to do what someone else thinks you need to do.

It's you trying to fully manifest what you need to say, what colors you need to use, what lines you need to use, what. Where do you personally find beauty and inspiration? Because the things that inspire you inform your art.

And I can guarantee you they're going to inspire. Inspire someone else if they inspire you.

Barbara: 01:10:39

Very well put, Donna. Very well put.

And, you know, I've oftentimes said to students, it's well to look at other people's art, and I'm talking here about photography, but I must say, I learned a great deal by watching or seeing the original artists historically, across the United. Across the world, in terms of how they saw in a general way, to guide the person, the viewer's eye, for the.

For the eye of the viewer to capture or to get in and see what the artist was trying to say. It can be very subtle but very effective. And I love that, because I didn't want students to try and copy somebody else's work. That's not the deal.

That's not what you should be doing. You should be doing your own work, having your own vision. And I think they kind of got tired of hearing me rant, rave about that.

But it worked and that's what counts.

Megan: 01:12:11

Yeah, that's all. That advice is so good. So if any, whoever's listening, really, really, all of that is golden. I want to add to what you said just now, Barbara.

One of our board members, Lisa Sorrell, who's a cowboy. Cowboy boot maker, she talks about for developing a style that when she was getting started, she wouldn't just look at what she liked about other.

What other boot makers were doing, but she would look at what do I not like and how would I do it different? Which I thought was such good advice on that vein of things.

Barbara: 01:12:43

Wonderful. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Megan: 01:12:47

Well, the last question is simply, is there anything that we haven't addressed that you want people to know or that you would like to tell people?

Donna: 01:13:00

I'm starting a new project in January. Yes, finally. Well, not really. I've just been busy. I did some sculpture back in the mid-90s mid to late 90s.

And I was so busy with other stuff at that time and, and I could show them in the room with my big, bright, colorful paintings and drawings and nobody would see sculpture. So I didn't have time to fight that battle at that point in time. But I've got.

I've got my little sculpture area set up in my studio, and in January, I've got a couple of weeks that are unassigned, thank goodness, and I'm going to start again with sculpture. So that will be a new thing. And you can hold me accountable for that if you like.

Megan: 01:13:44

Okay, so if you're listening, Donna's going to send us pictures of her sculpture so we can post on it. Instagram.

Donna: 01:13:52

I took us.

I took a workshop, actually my first workshop ever in June of last year with John Coleman, because I admire his sculpture and I admire the way he draws, actually. And it was a nice reminder that I always meant to get back to that. So come january second week in January, I'm off and running.

Megan: 01:14:14

Oh my gosh.

I am just, I'm dying to see this because one of the things that I find so fascinating is whenever painters or people who draw go to sculpture because so often their sculptures have that same sort of like, it's like a line work, a texture to it. And I find it so fascinating that those things are often so similar in two totally different media.

Donna: 01:14:37

Well, the work may cure you of your fascination about that, but.

Megan: 01:14:42

All right, well, either way, I'm very, very, very excited to see what that is. What about you, Barbara?

Barbara: 01:14:48

I took, I took a course in sculpture and it was a week long course in Santa Fe and we were given a. Just a skeleton about this big and that wide and. Or that long. And I thought, oh, this is great.

Well, he taught by using just the true anatomical terms. And I thought, okay, I'm going to get with it and learn this. Well, I just don't have apparently that ability.

Oh, I know what I want, but my hands don't seem to capture what's going on in my head about that. And I thought, okay, I've learned a lot.

I had a very interesting experience, but basically I'm just an old black and white photographer and I just have to live with that. But I do know something of reality and of photography. Yes.

Donna: 01:16:12

End of composition. Oh my gosh. Total composition.

Megan: 01:16:16

Yeah, yeah. Storytelling. Was there anything, Barbara, that we didn't cover that you would like to talk about or say anything about?

Barbara: 01:16:30

I don't think so, because I think it has to come from inside you people say to me, well, what kind of lens are you using? What kind of a camera? And I said these.

And I point to my eyes and then I pat my heart and I say, those are the two things that are so important in photography. You've got to see it, you have to feel it. And if you do, I think the viewer will capture it.

I've always been astounded that so many people say to me, well, I get the feeling on that long shot you did of the mountains, I get the feeling that you had. And I thought, thank God that means I'm doing something right. So that's about all I can say. I do think it's here and here.

Megan: 01:17:39

And you're so you're pointing out for people listening, pointing at your eyes and pointing at your heart.

Barbara: 01:17:44

Right?

Megan: 01:17:45

Yeah. Well, awesome. Thank you both so much for being here and for spending some of your time with me.

Barbara: 01:17:52

Well, it's. To hear Donna talk too. I'm loving.

Donna: 01:18:00

Was great. Absolutely. Anytime I get to spend with BBC is worth it.

Barbara: 01:18:06

Thank you.

Megan: 01:18:11

Hi, Barbara, how are you?

Barbara: 01:18:13

I'm fine, thank you. Thank you for asking.

Megan: 01:18:17

Yeah, well, we're.

If you're listening to the podcast, we have had Barbara come back on for just a second because we real that she was wanting to talk about the Mary Bell Grant and we would love to give her that opportunity. So you get a little extra dose of Barbara with this podcast. So Barbara, can you tell us a little bit about the Mary Bell Grant?

Barbara: 01:18:37

Well, the first time I got the Mary Bell Grant Award, I really didn't realize what it was for. It was, as it turned out, for promoting ranch life and helping to keep it existing and going on in the old fashioned way.

Megan: 01:19:02

So. And you, how many times have you won the Mary Bell Grant?

Barbara: 01:19:07

This year was twice.

Megan: 01:19:10

Okay.

Barbara: 01:19:10

I considered myself very fortunate to have gotten it the first year because that's what I was photographing. That's what I loved.

Ranch life and a life on horseback with animals, you know, and I just was doing what I loved and what I wanted to promote and I wanted the outside world to see the real reality of it.

Megan: 01:19:45

Well, Barbara, it's been such a great time chatting with you. I'm just, it's been a pleasure getting to talk to you and, and I'm so, I'm so.

I feel like it's been such a blessing just to get to chat with you these couple of times. I really appreciate you sharing some of your time with me.

Barbara: 01:19:59

Thank you. And thank you for giving me so much of your time and asking me again about the Mary Bale Grant Award.